So on a barely relevant side note, what a beautiful day! It’s is so sunny and wonderful! It’s the kind of day that makes you happy to live in such a beautiful place.
Becca and I headed off to the Baptist church that is held at our town’s Christian school. Upon arriving I noticed just how many people I know go there. My mother is South African so there were tons of other South African family friends that were attending. It was really nice to see them all again. Upon walking into the gym were the service was held, I noticed a band on stage. A straight up rock band, with the drums and the guitars and everything. All the Christian services I have attended, both in my life and thus far on this adventure, have had traditional hymns and to be honest they kind of a soft spot somewhere in my heart. The introduction of modern music into an older world view must be a way to attract and more youthful and modern followers. Well all I can say is that it worked.
The fist song was sung, and already people were getting into it, really into it. One song frequently mentioned “ Jesus the King who reigns “ I have a few things to say about this. Firstly, if Jesus is presently reigning over us, he is doing a pretty poor job of it. Between AIDS, the recent Japan earthquake and all the other amounts of suffering he seems to be slacking of on his duties a bit. I understand that this is metaphoric however it seems a little bit incongruent with world events, and I am sure I will continue to have this grievance with every monotheistic church we end up going to.
Lyrics also talked about how Jesus’ blood washed away our sins. Well, this is assertion has always seemed strange to me. God sent his son (or himself depending on your views on the trinity) so that he can die for the sins god created in the first place, to save you from a hell he created in the first place, and he did this all because he loves you. Further more, “sins” (which I believe have a very wide definition) are a part of life. I do not know if they are referring to sins in the biblical sense, or thing that modern society believes are immoral either way one mistakes are part of ones life. To be forgiven from sin from an all powerful god seems strange to me, if you feel you have done something wrong you must feel bad about it and try to make it right. To forgive yourself and have the people you have affected seems more important to me then absolution from god.
NOW for the thing in the whole service I found most interesting! At some point during the service the pastor put up this quote “ Every man lives by faith, the non believer as well as the saint; the one by faith in natural laws; and the other by faith in God. Every man through out his life constantly accepts without understanding” –A.W Tozer. This would offend the pants of most atheists, naturalists, antitheists, humanists or what ever you want to call us. Let me just lay out why. So atheists reject blind faith that is faith in something without evidence. Most religions are built upon the idea of blind faith that your selected deity tests you by seeing weather or not you will believe him/she/it unconditionally. Now atheists reject that by saying belief must be given after physical evidence is presented, and that if god is loving he would probably test you on your morality, not on your ability to ignore the fact that some things are impossible. We do not put the same kind of faith in scientific theory as a Christian would put in god, because said theory can be tested, retested and is highly evident to be fact. For example ( let’s pick something a wee bit controversial) evolution. Evolution is scientific fact based on genetic evidence showing the relationships between species , speciation ( divergent evolution where in a species may become two species because of adaptation to different environments), and the direct physical evidence of fossils. People have the “ faith” that Tozer was speaking of earlier in evolution because it is fact that is backed up copious amount of physical evidence. Creationism, and intelligent design rely on blind faith, the kind of faith that people like me reject. To call these kinds of faith one in the same is highly inaccurate.
The pastor mentioned how hard it must be going through hard times in life without having god to guide you. If I am going to be entirely honest he absolutely correct in that, one thing an atheist is forced to do is accept the miserable and stark nature of the universe because we do not have the rose coloured glasses of faith. Believing that though times are hard now, but god loves me so it will get better is a very comforting idea that helps a lot of people. I think that there are other means of making your way through hard times though, without an imaginary friend who tells you it’s going to be ok. Family and friends and the beauty in the cosmos are all things that are there religion or no religion , being a nonbeliever just makes harsh realities random and not placed there to punish you.
There is so much more I could write about that is I will stop now to save you further boredom! A special thanks to Nik Authier ( the amazing projector man) who let me copy quotes down arfter the service, and thanks so all the wonderful people, and old friends who were so welcoming
Hannah,
ReplyDeleteFirst I must say that I love this blog. I have learned so much about Lutheran baptist and atheist beliefs just from reading yours and Becca's words, and both of your writings styles keeps it from getting boring.
I have noticed however that you mention quite a few times major world epidemics and disasters as a way to dissmiss the idea of a loving god or a god at all who watches over us. So I will leave you this story.
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It is thanksgiving and a large family is about to sit down to enjoy a feast. But before they do they begin with a time honored tradition of giving thanks for things in their lives. As they each go around expressing their gratitude the eldest son gets his turn. He speaks of being grateful of his family, especially his new one; his wife and soon to be newborn son. As he shares these feelings about his forthcoming fatherhood, he remembers a story of when he was a boy and shares it with his family.
"do you all remember that swing set we used to have in the back yard? The one that broke when a tree fell on it? I have to confess that it wasn't a tree that broke it. I did. If you can remember mom, I loved swinging high enough so that it rocked back and forth on it's supports, which you always told me not to do because it was dangerous. but I loved it and didn't quite see the danger. Until one day I went too high and pulled it right over and it crashed on top of me. I hurt myself pretty bad. I thing I may have sprained my wrist but I acted like there was nothing wrong for a whole week, I was so scared I would get in trouble. I guess telling you now isn't so scary anymore".
"I knew" his mother replied, "what?" her son asked. "I knew. I saw it happen from the kitchen window. I had told you a hundred times not to do that but there you were, at it again. But as I was about to head outside and scold you, I decided not to, and I watched as moments later you crashed that swing set into the ground and almost broke your arm like I knew you would".
The son asked "but if you knew that would happen how coulees you let me get hurt? Why didn't you take me to the hospital?" and his mother replied "because if I had stopped you, you would have just been at it again another day, when I'd have to stop you again. You needed to make that mistake or else you would never have learned. And I waited for you to come to me with your wrist so I could ease your suffering, because I knew it wasn't serious, I just wanted you to learn to come to me or others for help".
And with that, came laughter. The dinner continued. Many more thanks were given, as well as many jokes at each other expense. But the eldest son saw his mother like he never had before.
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Now this wasn't verbatim. This story was told to me during a lesson. It is a true story. And its purpose is to reflect the same kind of love our Heavenly father has for us.
This is our mortal probation. This is our time to prove we are worthy to one day become like him and to live with him again. But we can't do that unless he let's us learn for ourselves. To make mistakes. To hurt others and be hurt by others.
As for things like aids and natural disaster, these are things that are meant to bring us together, to unite us in helping each other overcome great trials and times of enormous difficulty. As for those people who die from such atrocities, it is terrible and sad, yes. But not our Fathers wishes. Every one of us would live full and healthy lives if it were possible to maintain our freedom and free agency in the process. But it's not, because thats what freedom is. Freedom sometimes is dying at the hands of something else, be it a person or natural disaster.
God loves us. Thats why he let's us live our lives free from his interference.
I used to attend said christian school....and every musical cast/crew after party was held at oceanside's "headquarters" across the street. I remember going to chapel services at school and being so perplexed by the rock music. (shrugs) Good post :) Thank-you for sharing your ideas and thoughts! :)
ReplyDeleteHey everyone thanks for your thoughts!
ReplyDeleteTehporpoise has a very good point indeed, that god allows us to make mistakes so that we may learn from them. This is a perfectly reasonable assertion and does make sense to me. However I am bit confused. I think to say things such as AIDS are a way to bring us together is a bit strange, such a pandemic has destroyed millions of lives and crumbled countries the world over and presently there is no end in sight to the suffering. I think the loving god that is described by most Christians could probably find a more... consructive and less cruel way of bringing us together.
Your next point ( please corrrect me if I am wrong) is that your god would allow for everyone to have long lives if we could maintain our freedom while doing so. I would argue allowing bad things to happen is a hindrance to freedom rather than a help. I do not believe that there is any deity punishing us for a deed when bad things happen.
I found the comment " As for those who die from such atrocities, it is terrible and say yes. But not our Father's wishes" interesting, when you say that it is not your god's wishes are you saying that some other negative supernatural force such as Satan are allowing these people to die? Or you implying that god had no choice?
What I am saying is that natural disasters and pandemics are a reasult of factors in the physical world, and not supernatural forces. The arugument that god allows these things to happen because he wants us to learn from our mistakes, or wants us to have more freedom are poor justifications for suffering.
These are just the conversations I want to start! You gave me lots to think about!
From now on I will address both Hanna and Becca together as "The Adventure".
ReplyDeleteI'm so glad that you brought up the points you did. Because I always have trouble wording what I say properly, in fact you'll probably only have more questions at the end of this. Especially when I say that things like aids are a way of bringing us together. That point was not a religious view. It is a personal view that got mixed in without clarification.
So to clarify this viewpoint I must start at somewhat of a beginning with somewhat of a detached view of our existence.
The earth is perfect. Every system has a purpose. Everything gives and everything takes. It's a perfect balance. Then enter the human race. Imperfect by definition. We take and take and take, only giving back when it is convenient for us.
Consciousness is a curse. It allows us to believe that us and our survival are more important than that of the earth. Death is completely natural an beautiful, it is our fear of it that complicates things.
I believe in survival of the fittest in a idealistic sort of way, like "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger". Evolution, the passing on of the strongest genes makes sense. But we as the human race have been weakening ourselves, relying too much on medicine to cure our ailments. But it is what it is now.
It's my personal belief that aids and natural disasters are, put bluntly, crowd control. In the past it's been plagues and famine. But we learned to prepare for or fight those. So since we got stronger, so too must our enemy.
If I'm explaining this properly, so that it makes at least understandable sense to you, all I meant is that in the end, all we have is our ability to unite and conquer or perish.
Now to clarify the rest!
I don't believe that we are being punished when bad things happen. What I meant is that, we have been given free agency, every one of us. We have the right to decide for ourselves everything that we do or say or even think. Like what we want to be, who we want to marry, what we want to believe. But we also have the freedom to kill. We must have the freedom to kill, or worse, otherwise making the choice not to has no meaning or purpose. What I was alluding to when I said that God would wish us to live full lives is that he finds no joy in seeing one of his children take the life of another, or, instead of putting words in his mouth I should ask, what God would take joy in it? I don't believe that when someone dies before natural causes take them, it's "Gods will". Because, like I said before, we would have no freedom if God intervened.
Thanks for being so constructive, I appreciate your openness, it's very refreshing. But I promise to keep my thoughts more contained in the future. I simply think about these kinds of things a lot, and have no outlet, so I kind of exploded here. But I have created an outlet for myself to contain my ramblings. If you wish to read a more of what I have to say check out "omnipotence101.blogspot.com" in about a week.
Still expect me to have a steady presence here though. You ladies have a lot of potential in your hands, and I'm excited to be here at the beginning.
I too like having lots to think about! Cant wait till next week!
HEY THERE , so I don't want you to feel like I am ignore your comment! I have just been really busy, HOWEVER I shall respond as soon as I feel like can provide a thoughtful response, which will probably be tomorrow :)
ReplyDeleteI was just reading this post and was totally caught off guard by something you said about sins. The atonement seems confusing to you because in your own words god created sins and Hell and sin is a natural part of life. To try and help you understand the Atonement better I'll explain it to you the way I believe it to be. God did not create sin. The world and life and the universe is so much bigger than just god vs Satan. It's good vs evil, which is the ultimate 'rule' of the universe. God and Satan are the figureheads which represent and fight for them. God did not create sin. There are universal laws that God must abide by. He didn't invent right and wrong. But he abides by them. We choose between right and wrong and thus choose between sinning and not sinning. God is a very loving man and understood wholeheartedly that with mortal life comes the inevitable: sin. He's never angry with us for our mistakes or sins because he knows we are human and imperfect and always learning. What he wants from us isn't to 'not sin'. He wants us to acknowledge the sin and grow from it and make amends with whomever we have offended or harmed in the process. You said yourself that making peace with the ones we have harmed is more important than sayin sorry to god. And youre right. But making amends with those people IS making amends with god. Jesus said in the new testament that the two greatest commandments are to love god and to love thy neighbour. You automatically show love to god by loving your neighbour and you cannot truly love god without loving your neighbour. So in a nutshell, the purpose of repenting (acknowledging and making up for your sins) is to create love between ourselves and with god, not to make god feel better about himself. He is the ultimate parent. When we are happy he is happy. And since he is god and all knowing, he knows exactly what will make us perfectly happy and urges us to seek after those things.
ReplyDeleteAlso, in response to what you said about god's way of bringing us together through horrible circumstances. I agree that there are terrible and awful things in this world. But that's the whole point. Earth was meant to be earth, a fallen state, a place of chaos and dissension. Everyone says that if god loves us he wouldn't make this world so awful. I don't know exactly how much god controls on earth and how much he simply let's happen. But the one comment that irks me everytime I hear it is "if god loved us he wouldn't make this world so aweful. He would find kinder more pleasant ways of teaching us." every time I hear this all I can think of is that people want heaven on earth. They don't want to have to suffer horrible things. But everyone seems to forget that this time on earth is a time to be tried and tested. A perfect world isn't possible here and now, but it does exist: it's called Heaven. And we will eventually get there. But this life on earth can't be perfect and without pain, what would be the point of life in mortality? And I think he horrible things in this life all have a purpose. Maybe having AIDS is a way to teach you to be humble and kind to others despite your circumstances. Our natural reaction to negative and hard things is to be angry and unkind. But our true nature as children of god is to be kind and loving no matted what, just as god is to us. We may make the same mistakes over and over again, and he may become stern and reproving with us. But he still loves us and blesses us nonetheless. He's trying to teach us to be like him. Because if we were, think of what would happen. Think of all the good that would result.
ReplyDeleteOh my word such much to respond to, I have no idea where to start. I will start with Shreddie's comments, and move on to previous ones. If I don't get to every pointI am very sorry.
ReplyDeleteI wil begin with the part about sin. I am not sure if you are LDS, but I am assuming so. If I am wrong I am very sorry. It's interesting to me that you say that god must abide by the laws of good and evil. What I was taught is that god is bigger and more powerful than anything, and that god by definition is above all things. My understanding is that Mormons believe that god is a man, that has never made sense to me even when I was a theist. God has always to be all powerful, and created everything.Yet he must abide by moral laws like humans? If that is so, who created such moral laws if not god? My understanding of Christianity was that all that is moral and good comes from god.
Maybe it's because Christians have a faith I will never understand, but I do not see how god's forgiveness will make your wrong doing any better. All one can do in a situation is forgive yourself , and make things with your loved ones better. I suppose for theists god's forgiveness is a part of that , but I do not need such a crutch. Supernatural forces have never taken part in my life, and have never helped or hindered either.
I will respond more later, I do not wish to make this a massive essay, and will probably do this topic by topic.